UPGRADE to Alpha? Another Header thread

[MaxPF]

Has anyone actually done it...?

I've done it plenty of times on V8s. You just go into the ECM and shut off the post-cat O2 sensors.

 

[humvee]

remove the mufflers and run a straight pipe from the cat to the tailgate.... trust me, the mufflers add the equivalent of at least 20' of pipe worth of back pressure.

Thanks.. thought about canceling the muffler on the borla, but I'd probably get an electric cutout instead, its illegal to run a straight pipe here.

 

[MaxPF]

Thanks.. thought about canceling the muffler on the borla, but I'd probably get an electric cutout instead, its illegal to run a straight pipe here.

You have a Borla muffler? They're straight-through designs, with virtually zero backpressure. Don't waste money or time on something that will simply make your exhaust obnoxiously loud with zero performance gains.

 

[humvee]

Yeah you're right. Becoming very desperate!

Round 3 of PCM fine-tuning currently in progress. I feel a performance increase in the high RPMs, still nothing down low.

Bringing the front end back down slightly, It'll help with air resistance until I get my shackles, or an alpha.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Depends on the muffler. You can see straight through the Magnaflow I have on my truck. It has no protrusions of any kind into the exhaust stream.

you can see through it, but it has perforations that open into a batting - that actually kills flow because it's dropping the air pressure in the muffler and creating collisions with the air. Most of the turbo style have louvers that are cut to pull flow and create immense back-pressure - but it looks like it flows because you can see through it. The best, for flow, is the flowmaster design which uses waves to cancel out sound, but actually helps flow and decrease backpressure

Thanks.. thought about canceling the muffler on the borla, but I'd probably get an electric cutout instead, its illegal to run a straight pipe here.

were it me, if I got stopped, I'd argue that the cat is a muffler (and I've had this argument before - and won)...

 

[humvee]

were it me, if I got stopped, I'd argue that the cat is a muffler (and I've had this argument before - and won)...

You're a very persuasive guy then. I'd probably win a ticket to pick up my truck from the impound 30 days later.. With a bit of over-arguing, they might just park it in the sun, and roll down my windows.


After doing some more driving with the new tune, I definitely feel an improvement overall... Anyone wants to get rid of their old headers?

 

[MaxPF]

you can see through it, but it has perforations that open into a batting - that actually kills flow because it's dropping the air pressure in the muffler and creating collisions with the air. Most of the turbo style have louvers that are cut to pull flow and create immense back-pressure - but it looks like it flows because you can see through it. The best, for flow, is the flowmaster design which uses waves to cancel out sound, but actually helps flow and decrease backpressure

Dyno tests disagree with your assertions.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Dyno tests disagree with your assertions.

You can't race a dyno - here's a good example of that. I have a good friend with a 598 ci BBC (Dart block) in his 68 Corvette, I had a 74 Corvette (I have a 75 now, I'm sick, I know it) with a 427 in it. Dyno hp - he had me by nearly 250 hp (750 to my 500). All except for the motor was exactly the same between the cars (okay mine was mostly white, his was mostly red to be absolutely accurate) - same suspension, same stripped back-breaking ride, no interior, etc.... I'd eat his lunch every time we raced at PIR. On paper, that 598 made a lot more hp, in the real world it simply meant his tires either went up in smoke in the corner or our drag races down the back-stretch would give him another long-distance view of my tail lights.

If that doesn't convince you, any "power increase" of less than 5% isn't repeatable - temps, moisture, altitude all make enough difference that even if the test was back to back - morning/afternoon, there's enough of a difference that it's not the same test. Now, I'm not saying that dyno results are optimized (a clever word for "cooked") but I am calling them liars....

 

[rsc]

If we are talking about dyno's, there is usually a 3% error between pulls, even back-to-back pulls before the car is taken off the dyno. How hard the vehicle is strapped onto the rollers and how much the engine has heat soaked are just a couple variables. Lets not even talk about calibration error between different dyno machines or manufacturers. The other stuff like temp, altitude, humidity (basically all the stuff that effects density altitude) are adjustable on the dyno. You could take a Yugo that just made 33hp on the rollers and adjust it to say it now makes 100hp by twiddling the dials. For the purposes of the H3, I WILL "race a dyno". We just are not putting down enough power that excessive HP is a problem and 30HP should be enough of a bump that it repeatably shows on the dyno and on the street.

 

[MaxPF]

You can't race a dyno - here's a good example of that. I have a good friend with a 598 ci BBC (Dart block) in his 68 Corvette, I had a 74 Corvette (I have a 75 now, I'm sick, I know it) with a 427 in it. Dyno hp - he had me by nearly 250 hp (750 to my 500). All except for the motor was exactly the same between the cars (okay mine was mostly white, his was mostly red to be absolutely accurate) - same suspension, same stripped back-breaking ride, no interior, etc.... I'd eat his lunch every time we raced at PIR. On paper, that 598 made a lot more hp, in the real world it simply meant his tires either went up in smoke in the corner or our drag races down the back-stretch would give him another long-distance view of my tail lights.

How does that possibly relate to dyno measurements regarding mufflers? Hint: it doesn't, so it's not relevant.

If that doesn't convince you

It's completely unrelated, and you expect it to "convince" me? :roll:

any "power increase" of less than 5% isn't repeatable - temps, moisture, altitude all make enough difference that even if the test was back to back - morning/afternoon, there's enough of a difference that it's not the same test. Now, I'm not saying that dyno results are optimized (a clever word for "cooked") but I am calling them liars....

If we are talking about dyno's, there is usually a 3% error between pulls, even back-to-back pulls before the car is taken off the dyno. How hard the vehicle is strapped onto the rollers and how much the engine has heat soaked are just a couple variables. Lets not even talk about calibration error between different dyno machines or manufacturers. The other stuff like temp, altitude, humidity (basically all the stuff that effects density altitude) are adjustable on the dyno. You could take a Yugo that just made 33hp on the rollers and adjust it to say it now makes 100hp by twiddling the dials. For the purposes of the H3, I WILL "race a dyno". We just are not putting down enough power that excessive HP is a problem and 30HP should be enough of a bump that it repeatably shows on the dyno and on the street.

Were not talking chassis dynos at some shadetree shop here. Were talking Superflo 901 engine dynos at the facilities of well known engine builders. Make 3 pulls, install muffler, make another 3 pulls. This takes a total of 30 minutes. Results are repeatable within a couple HP (on an engine making north of 600HP).

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

So much for having a conversation about dynos, mufflers, and headers. Max - you can take your hints and personal attacks and find someone else to talk to....

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

You're a very persuasive guy then. I'd probably win a ticket to pick up my truck from the impound 30 days later.. With a bit of over-arguing, they might just park it in the sun, and roll down my windows.


After doing some more driving with the new tune, I definitely feel an improvement overall... Anyone wants to get rid of their old headers?

Ymmv

 

[humvee]

Well we've definitely strayed off subject here... How about we leave it at that?


Besides that! kept the speedometer untouched... The H3 stock speedo reading is quite optimistic. with 35's, the indicated speed is now my actual speed.

Since I don't have an AWD dyno available, I just move to the next best thing: 0-60. To keep results as accurate as possible, I pick a straight road, test 0-60 twice with current tune.. install newer tune, test 0-60 twice... then start comparing.

PCM advised me to get longtube headers... The tune is still a work in progress... Here are my results so far:

Stock file (without 30" LED bar)
0-60 = 11.42 secs
35-60 = 8.1 secs

Tune file 1 (without 30" LED bar)
0-60 = 12.34 secs
35-60 = 8.43 secs

Tune file 2 (with 30" LED bar)
0-60 = 12.02 secs
35-60 = 8.49 secs

Tune file 3 (with 30" LED bar)
0-60 = 11.57 secs
35-60 = 8.48 secs

Kelly is working on the next version now. The tune files are currently set to 93 octane (USA), but we're not sure what octane that translates to here in Qatar. We have 95 & 98 here, We don't yet know what that's equivalent to in the States.

So once we get the best results, Kelly would send identical files for different octane levels.

Then, I'll make a final decision on the headers.

 

[Steve #1]

If they are suggesting long tube headers, they either don't know what they are talking about or don't understand what you are looking for which as I understand it is more low end power correct?

 

[humvee]

what you are looking for which as I understand it is more low end power correct?

I wasn't too clear on that here. My main issue is how long the truck takes to accelerate after shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear. Which brings down the engine rev to about 4000rpm. I meant low end rpm in 3rd gear (which was a mistake).

I need power gains in 3500-6400 rpm.

I know long tube headers sacrifice a bit of torque down low for a big boost in mid-high end torque. wondering what long tube header options are out there.

 

[Airborne]

Ok humvee.... So I will chime in on this. Either to save you some money or make you spend more .

There is a lot of info here and hopefully it can be used by someone else out there; specifically this is to Humvee as he is curious about the header and since he can't tinker as easily like we can here in the US hopefully this saves him some headache and maybe money.

I have an 07 H3 3.7L and to me it seems pretty gutless. I came from a grand cherokee with a solid V8 on which I put a K&N cai as well as a very free flowing exhaust. It moved very very well even with the 31" tires. Now with my H3 I have 33" tires much more "box" shaped and a much smaller engine. All that equals=weak. I have spent about 2 years on and off researching this topic on how to get more hp from the I5. I know the engine is very efficient and inlines for the size make decent horse, so that’s why I haven’t given up on it... yet.
To date this is what I have done to it:
K&N CAI
Deleted the Air box resonator (basically straight shot from the K&N filter to the throttle body)
Added Jet higher flow MAF
Exhaust straight pipe from manifold back deleted second cat and added super short muffler with 1 baffle (the shop referred to it a "racing" muffler) if you notice right after the manifold attaches to the mid pipe there is a squished part in the pipe. Any good exhaust shop can replace that with a straight pipe I'm not sure why they did that there is still PLENTY of space after they replaced it. If you then take a look through that portion after they get it off it's only about an inch even less the exhaust has to pass through. Very very restrictive. After the exhaust work it breaths noticeably better and sure as hell sounds a ton better. It actually sounds like a truck now.

Of all the upgrades the most difference I notice from any plug and play option is the Jet MAF. It honestly is the most difference you "feel" vs the others.

With that being done I have been looking really hard at the Alphas or turbo charging/super charging the I5 since I'm not too happy with the current driveability.

To get an Alpha I'm looking at around a $7-10k difference from my 07's value to one with low enough miles to make a switch worth it. I currently have 86,000 miles on my 07. The Alpha would need to have around 50k or less to justify that price increase for me.

Turbocharging is around $7k after it's all said and done.
About the same if not a little more for super charging.
The turbo didn't appeal to me as it was inherently harder on the engine. I was leaning toward the super charger as it's power more on a curve vs the boost from the turbo but I don't have enough knowledge base to do that my self or trouble shoot any problems that would surely arise.

So now to my next to last option with the I5 was the following:
I have been looking at the EFAN, Super Sparks, ported throttle body, after market header and finally PCM tune.
-The EFAN "frees up" maybe 5-10 hp which appeals to me.
-The super sparks and ported throttle body I realize won't "add" hp but should help get the most out of the modifications already done and should help with throttle response.
-The header claims 20-32 hp gains and 20+ ft/lb torque on a stock engine. Of course adding the other mods "should" get you more. I'm going to be optimistic and hope for 20-25 hp and 15 ft/lbs from the header.
-Finally the pcm tune, again depends on who you speak with, but you are looking for a 10-15 hp on a stock engine. Again hopefully more with the other mods.

OK a lot of out loud thoughts I realize that. Hopefully this will help someone out from either wasting money or spending it in the right places to get what they want.

The modifications I have on it right now I'm guessing I have around +20 hp. Basically higher flow intake and higher flow exhuast plus the MAF. With all the mods I just listed I'm looking at hopefully getting another +40-50 hp. That in theory should put me at about the same hp as a stock Alpha. In theory.

This last weekend I finally bit the bullet and ordered all the parts listed above: the EFAN, Super Sparks, ported throttle body and the PCM tune from James aka supermodulation on the colorado/canyon forums. I ordered the header from Josh at over the top performance OTTP. Around $1200 shipped for everything
Both of those guys are tier one to deal with. I have had lengthy conversations with both. With James actually close to 90 mins so far and counting. The super sparks and ptb should be here by the end of the week along with the pcm core exchange from James. I will install them and let everyone know how they work. The EFAN and Header should be here sometime next week along with my PCM tuned and ready to go. Again I will install them and let everyone know how they work.


As an added perk there are all these claims out there about added mpgs with every single one of the mods I have listed. I went from 16-17 mpgs mixed city and highway with the 31" street tires before the mods to a solid 17-18 mpgs with the mods I have now. After 33" all terrain tires I put on 2 years ago I consistently get 14 mpgs mixed city and freeway. So a loss??? I understand that the bigger tires don't help at all with mpgs but still I'm disappoint about the mpg "gains" with the previous mods I have done. Lets just say I'm hoping for a slight improvement in mpgs with the new mods, but won't hold my breath.

I am religious about checking mileage every single fill up. No matter what I use: lower octane higher octane fuel, seafoam added to the tank, seafoam added to the crankcase, lucas fuel treatment added to the fuel etc etc.
Just to have eliminate any loss in performance/hp I am extremely vigilant on maintenance for my vehicles. I use Amsoil exclusively with K&N oil filters and change every 8,000 miles for the hummer. Every other oil change I run a quart of seafoam in the crank case for the last 200 miles to clean everything out. To give you an idea of the cleanliness of my motor the oil is a nice tree sap amber color for the first 5,000-6,500 miles then gets a little darker but never ever "black" at the oil change.

I add this ^ so you can maybe eliminate some other variables, with possible hp loss or lack of hp.

Link to all of James' products
http://www.355nation.net/forum/supe...rmodulation-services-sales-how-tos-links.html
His tune isn't listed but he does do them, I'm guessing it on a ask only basis. He charges $150 and that includes a loaner core shipped to you. My H3 is a daily driver so this was a must to me.

Here is the link to Josh's header
http://www.ottperformance.com/store/pc/I5-Colorado-Canyon-Stock-Replacement-Header-298p1361.htm


Any way I will get all these things put on the vehicle this week and the next. This list is every single modification that the hummer and colorado/canyon people have thought of to do to the I5 besides turbos and superchargers as I mentioned above.

I will keep you posted on any improvements or wasted money. If they don't work out it looks like we are both getting Alphas

Last resort I am also looking at a wet nitrous system too you can have those about $500 and get real 35-150 hp to the wheels. It is only short lived but still it's real power and up to 100 hp you aren't really straining that I5 very much.

 

[Airborne]

An addition to the last post, I have researched the hell out short tube/long tube headers. There were 4 specifically I was looking at Mesa black works, hummer parts club, jags that run and then finally found the ottp header. The mesa black works and Hummer parts club look to be identical in every way except the hummer parts club is $100 more. I almost bought the mesa header then I found the ottp. The ottp header is $300 cheaper than the mesa black works. Both are made of 304 stainless so the quality and durability should be the same. Josh warranties the headers for life. No questions. Not sure on the mesa black works. The mesa clearly has longer tubes than the one from ottp but from what I have read and learned twisty tubes do not "help" anything regardless if they are making the tubes longer. In short obviously you want to get that exhuast out the back as efficiently as possible, so if by removing the cat helps tremendously, then I can under zero circumstance see why putting nice looking snake tubes on the header is going to help with the exhaust leaving the engine. Aside from perhaps IF they make it the perfect resonance zone in the very perfect world of unicorns and rainbows. But even still for an extra $300 does not seem practical at all.

http://www.amazon.com/Nitrous-Express-20421-10-Proton-System/dp/B004706C0Q#productDetails
That $300 could easily go for the nitrous!!!!

 

[amrg]

Wat we really need are headers for the Alpha! Now that wld b great!

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Wat we really need are headers for the Alpha! Now that wld b great!

I too was wondering what the discussion on the I-5 had anything to do with the Alpha.... still, the short answer is custom headers - that costs ~2,000 and requires you leave your vehicle or a similar vehicle with the builder for a week.

And no, I'm not planning on building H3 headers, too small of a market to justify the R&D - especially since what you want depends on where you're at - in Qatar, I'm sure smog regulations are non-existent; whereas here, if you modify them - you can run into all sorts of hell. That hell comes in two general flavors, 1 - via the emissions folks if you must smog check your vehicle, and 2 - (this, you can file under why I'm not interested) all muffler shops are prevented by federal (enforced federal law) law from modifying or disabling smog equipment. As it's a $1,000 fine per occurrence, possible jail time, and the muffler shop must pay to get the non-conforming vehicle to conform - as you can imagine it's not easy to convince a shop to take the risk..... especially since, when the vehicle is sold, the new owner of the vehicle the "friend" said he'd never, ever sell only wants his vehicle to conform and the "friend" has absolutely no trouble avoiding jail by testifying against me....

 

[chaos254]

Airborne, I'm looking forward to seeing how the OTTP header works for you. Do you have emissions where your are at? Also did you have them install 2 o2 bungs like the stock manifold?

Sent from my TouchPad using Tapatalk

 

[Kyle]

I put header(s) on my 2006 and it made a significant difference. However, I think it needs a PCM tune because it seems to be struggling to reach the right gear before it gets to 50 mph. I now have an Alpha. It's much better on the low end. I have not tried the zoomies or flying toilet yet, but it's on my list of future mods.

Whether it is worth it or not depends on your disposable income. Very subjective, but it does make a significant difference. My 2006 is for sale for a very reasonable price. I suggest you buy it and try out the headers and decide for yourself.

hey i also heard changing your blinker fluid helps increase horse power, im not 100% sure though.:wink:

 

[jakesz28]

Now any mail order tune with a lot of aftermarket parts is like throwing a dart at the dart board. You don't know what you will get. I am in no way saying they don't know what they are doing but they are just guessing. Especially if you have an aftermarket mass airflow sensor. Is it possible it felt better driving it? Maybe but seat of the pants dyno's are a guess too.

Now if they give you a base tune. Then you take some long drives data logging. Send them the file, they make corrections to the tune. Especially the MAF tables and VE tables based on data logging with a wideband. Great they will get you there. But guess work no. That's why I bought HP tuners pro. It has inputs for wideband On sensors. Which is required to correct drivablity, power enrichment (wide the fu×k open throttle), ect

 

[Steve #1]

I meant low end rpm in 3rd gear (which was a mistake).

An AR-5 would fix that. Shorter/lighter tires would also help.

 

[humvee]

Ok humvee.... So I will chime in on this. Either to save you some money or make you spend more .

There is a lot of info here

Yes that is a large amount of info! I appreciate it. Thanks sent.

I would love to hear what sort of power increase you get out of these headers. Personally, I haven't heard good things about OTT headers, & the after sales service. Hopefully Im misinformed.

I have a Borla cat-back, & thinking I should do something about that flat bit in the exhaust. I think someone explained how the design is actually non-restrictive... Not sure though.

Airdoc will eventually come off to make room a Volant CAI system.

Contacted the ported TB people, they didn't accept my request to allow a couple extra days for shipping because I live abroad. Even though i said id pay the full amount in advance, & they'd just refund me when its there.

I'm not looking to eliminate all back pressure though, it would kill the torque. I do a lot of sand dune trails.

Good luck with your upgrades. My only request though is that you bring back some real before & after results. Dyno, 0-60, anything other than how it feels. Keep in mind that mileage reading may vary before & after.

PCM mail order tune will always get you better results.. Datalogs back and forth are the way to go. I suggest you do that instead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[humvee]

An AR-5 would fix that. Shorter/lighter tires would also help.

Thanks... 35" tires are why I bought the H3 in the first place.. If you know about any 16" rims that are lighter than stock, send a link through.

An AR-5 would be a dream come true! Power, mileage, heaven. Maybe when the Hummer becomes my secondary ride though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk